Markus vinzent marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels

Marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels

the synoptic gospels at odds with early christian art and archaeology? this mean vinzent would support those who argue for a mythical christ? this article:Marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels , written by markus vinzent, page 1 of 1. the present volume is the first systematic study of all available early evidence that we have about the first witness to our gospel narratives, marcion of sinope. at the same time, however, i find much of the argumentation in his volume to be problematic and, at least to my mind, insufficiently nuanced, at times indefensible, and ultimately unconvincing.” though it is true that the reconstruction of the entirety of marcion’s gospel only appears in my above-mentioned monograph (word count restrictions precluded my doctoral thesis from dealing with all of the sources and reconstructing all the verses of marcion’s gospel), my dissertation provided a textual commentary on every verse attested by tertullian precisely in order then to reconstruct every verse attested only by tertullian. in my view, then, any attempt to establish the relationship between marcion’s gospel and luke by invoking such an argument from silence is so tenuous that it cannot be taken as having any force. first, though vinzent clearly seems aware of the history of scholarship on marcion’s gospel and the reconstructions of marcion’s gospel in greek by, e.” the problem is that this is a planned work of vinzent’s that has not been published! there was a marcion conference in dresden recently and it seems marcion priority is gaining support, even a consensus, according to david trobisch (among marcion specialists). on the question to hand, the only contributors invited were those already in agreement on the priority of marsion’s gospel. and the dating of the synoptic gospels (studia patristica supplements).” vinzent, however, does not do this and not until n.”[4] with schmid, i would posit that arguments from silence based on marcion’s supposed theological proclivities should not be employed when considering what was or was not present in marcion’s gospel.“in his own words, “marcion, who created the new literary genre of the ‘gospel’ and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of christ’s sayings and narratives”. as ulrich schmid already pointed out in a 2003 article, arguments positing the absence of 5:39 in marcion’s gospel are “simply creating positive evidence (in this very case positive negative evidence) out of no evidence at all.

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels , written by Markus

, vinzent states, “the gospel and [marcion’s] apostolikon (of ten pauline letters) can be recovered only partially from glimpses that are given by his opponents, unearthed from their writings (primarily tertullian, epiphanius, adamantius’ [pseudo-origen?: vinzent refers to the combination of jesus’ sayings & narratives of actions into a continuous bios-type genre. when i first read this sentence, i was fully agreeing with vinzent until he got to “codex bezae. book opens with the following lines: 'out of "decent respect for the opinion of others", my monograph christ's resurrection in early christianity (2011), and its then preliminary hypothesis of the making of the new testament (a lately added subtitle), put me "under the obligation to do more"' (a quote from william r., i think you don’t grasp quite what (dieter, not david) roth is saying: vinzent’s case for the priority of marcion’s gospel is built upon a purported reconstructed text of marcion’s gospel, and roth claims that vinzent doesn’t give adequate basis for the text that he treats as marcion’s., vinzent states, “the gospel and [marcion’s] apostolikon (of ten pauline letters) can be recovered only partially from glimpses that are given by his opponents, unearthed from their writings (primarily tertullian, epiphanius, adamantius’ [pseudo-origen? within the confines of my brief, forthcoming jts review i offer two specific examples concerning problems with vinzent’s use and reading of the sources (the first foundation noted above), so i will not repeat those here. apart from all the other problems i have with vinzent’s volume, a fundamental one is that if we are going to debate the place of marcion’s gospel in early christianity, we must first debate the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel. 275, vinzent offers an (english) reading of luke 5:36-39 in marcion’s gospel. dieter has just published a full critical reconstruction of the text of marcion’s gospel, and is far better qualified than i to provide comment on the subject. it evaluates our commonly known arguments for dating the synoptic gospels, elaborates on marcion's crucial role in the gospel making and argues for a re-dating of the gospels to the years between 138 and 144 ad. it is my hope, however, that constructive dialogue among those engaged in the present debates concerning marcion’s gospel, along the lines that markus and i have already enjoyed numerous times over the past years, will continue and that as a result, greater insight will be gained into this fascinating and important gospel text. luke was written about 80 ad and after mark, and marcion edited out what didn’t like in it. have just learned that matthias klinghardt (dresden) is going to present a two volume edition (with introduction) of marcion's gospel where he has come to one same conclusion (although there are still nuances and differences in detail) that this gospel is the oldest of its kind and the inspiration and source for other gospels, especially the later canonical ones which have been directly dependent on this one. sum, for reasons outlined briefly in my forthcoming jts review, i do not think that the relevant sources, in particular tertullian, support vinzent’s thesis. i guess that there might be good reasons to challenge vinzent’s proposal of marcion’s gospel as being the main single source for all gospels (unless i didn’t correctly get vinzent’s proposal on the matter).

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Roth on Vinzent on Marcion | Larry Hurtado's Blog

at the same time, however, i find much of the argumentation in his volume to be problematic and, at least to my mind, insufficiently nuanced, at times indefensible, and ultimately unconvincing. it’s a question about the development of the literary genre of the gospels. for helping martin — and the rest of us — gain a little perspective on what the scholarly consensus on this issue is and is not. instead, in this post i would like to focus my comments on larger issues related to the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel (the second of vinzent’s foundations).” though the question of the relationship of marcion’s gospel to the so-called “western” text has often been discussed, codex bezae is not a source for marcion’s gospel and has no place in this list., if marcion’s was the earliest gospel, and the others were reliant on it, this would have implications for the argument that the stories of the gospels reflect the life of an actual person called jesus in first century palestine. and the dating of the synoptic gospels , written by markus vinzent. and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels (Studia Patristica Supplements) [Markus Vinzent] on Amazon.[2] indeed, this volume is one of several monographs that have been, or are about to be published, concerning marcion or marcion’s gospel. 275, vinzent offers an (english) reading of luke 5:36-39 in marcion’s gospel. the problem is, however, that 5:39 is unattested for marcion’s gospel.[2] markus vinzent, marcion and the dating of the gospels (studia patristica supplements 2; leuven: peeters, 2014). luke was written about 80 ad and after mark, and marcion edited out what didn’t like in it. everyone who has examined the evidence (without a prior agenda) has judged that traditions about jesus (sayings, stories about him) circulated for decades before authors of the gospels chose to combine them into a connected narrative with a “bios” like shape. any case, vinzent’s book doesn’t simply assert priority of marcions’ gospel over the canonical text of luke, but asserts that marcion’s gospel preceded all the canonical gospels. reader then confronts two further problems surrounding marcion’s gospel when reading through vinzent’s text of marcion gospel.

Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels (Studia Patristica

Markus Vinzent's Blog: Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic

any case, vinzent’s book doesn’t simply assert priority of marcions’ gospel over the canonical text of luke, but asserts that marcion’s gospel preceded all the canonical gospels. 264-72 he offers marcion’s gospel, luke, mark, and matthew in parallel columns in order to argue that marcion is the “key factor for the innersynoptic relation” (p. so, alongside david roth’s review, i’d expect to see a critical review of vinzent’s book by any scholar dealing with the synoptic problem. vinzent essentially attempts to construct his case on two foundations: first, and foremost, on the basis of his reading of several important sources for and works on marcion’s gospel and second, on the basis of what vinzent presumes to be the content and readings of marcion’s gospel. vinzent’s focus, however, is on 5:39, which (as some others have done before him) vinzent argues was not present in marcion’s gospel, but was added by luke as an anti-marcionite reading. that is a much bigger stretch, and so far as i can see the dresden conference didn’t deal with that. which is: before we can judge the relationship of marcion’s gospel to luke, we first must have a critical text established for marcion’s gospel! this mean vinzent would support those who argue for a mythical christ? reader then confronts two further problems surrounding marcion’s gospel when reading through vinzent’s text of marcion gospel. in fact, the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel-text as evidenced in tertullian is one of the main contributions of the dissertation. first, vinzent uses a novel manner of chapter and verse numbering. Are the Synoptic Gospels at odds with Early Christian art and archaeology?(lwh:  given the stir created by markus vinzent’s recent book on marcion, i invited dieter roth to give a guest blog-posting on the book. first, though vinzent clearly seems aware of the history of scholarship on marcion’s gospel and the reconstructions of marcion’s gospel in greek by, e. your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. roth for taking the time to explain your own research and the arguments that vinzent has put forth.

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Part 3—A revolution in the Synoptic Problem | Mythicist Papers

and the dating of the synoptic gospels (studia patristica supplements). to larry and to dieter for this thoughtful, gracious and articulate review. vinzent proposes marcion was significant in the literary history of early christianity.”[4] with schmid, i would posit that arguments from silence based on marcion’s supposed theological proclivities should not be employed when considering what was or was not present in marcion’s gospel. forward to his and other's critical comments - as the learning journey is always only a start. there was a marcion conference in dresden recently and it seems marcion priority is gaining support, even a consensus, according to david trobisch (among marcion specialists). surely we must first argue for a reconstruction before drawing conclusions about the “innersynoptic relation. as ulrich schmid already pointed out in a 2003 article, arguments positing the absence of 5:39 in marcion’s gospel are “simply creating positive evidence (in this very case positive negative evidence) out of no evidence at all. Their narrativesComments on the new testament and early christianity (and related matters). doing this does not mean that the relationship between marcion’s gospel and luke has been decided, or that the reading in luke is that of marcion. Art and archaeology cannot provide the material basis 'to secure the irrefutable inner continuity' of the Christian beginnings (Erich Dinkler); can the Synoptic Gospels step in? though perhaps the present decade has not yet reached the amount of scholarly output found in the debates on marcion’s gospel in german scholarship of the 1840s and 1850s, we are well on our way! on the question to hand, the only contributors invited were those already in agreement on the priority of marsion’s gospel. such statements are a bit surprising and unexpected for a monograph focusing on marcion’s gospel and, unfortunately, reflect subsequent problematic interactions with ancient sources and scholars by vinzent. week larry was kind enough to write a blog post mentioning my new monograph the text of marcion’s gospel published by brill in january of this year,[1] and he has now extended an invitation for me to write a guest entry interacting with markus vinzent’s new book entitled marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels. in his own words, “marcion, who created the new literary genre of the ‘gospel’ and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of christ’s sayings and narratives” (p.

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Markus Vinzent's Blog: Dieter T. Roth, on 'Marcion and the Dating of

i understand that roth’s critique is mainly built upon marcion’s gospel reconstruction, however, i believe that the most revolutionary proposal of vinzent (also according to his book’s title) is about the gospels’ dating and the synoptic problem solution. of course, the devil is in the details and discussing all the particulars here would impose far too much on those patient enough to have read this already far too long blog post. i readily admit that i was initially attracted to the study of marcion’s gospel due to interest in the questions that vinzent is also interested in, including the relationship between marcion’s gospel and canonical luke, i quickly became convinced that before any of these issues can be discussed on a sound basis, significant attention must once again be given to the actual text of marcion’s gospel. further problem highlights a methodological issue in reconstructing marcion’s gospel. vinzent’s focus, however, is on 5:39, which (as some others have done before him) vinzent argues was not present in marcion’s gospel, but was added by luke as an anti-marcionite reading. members enjoy free two-day shipping and exclusive access to music, movies, tv shows, original audio series, and kindle books. your mobile number or email address below and we'll send you a link to download the free kindle app. first, vinzent uses a novel manner of chapter and verse numbering. farmer, 1977), and i add: 'neither then nor now do i intend to provide "the solution to every problem", "the answer to the question of the universe" or try to chase "a particular ghost in the shadows .., theodor zahn and adolf von harnack, unaccountably he writes “marcion’s gospel has not been critically edited from its greek and latin sources to provide us with its contours and, as far as possible, with its greek wording, except for a very early attempt by the famous august hahn (1792-1863)” (p. on the new testament and early christianity (and related matters). we, pastors, usually have to read about theories like vinzent’s in the media, usually hyped as if true, without qualification. i readily admit that i was initially attracted to the study of marcion’s gospel due to interest in the questions that vinzent is also interested in, including the relationship between marcion’s gospel and canonical luke, i quickly became convinced that before any of these issues can be discussed on a sound basis, significant attention must once again be given to the actual text of marcion’s gospel.” though it is true that the reconstruction of the entirety of marcion’s gospel only appears in my above-mentioned monograph (word count restrictions precluded my doctoral thesis from dealing with all of the sources and reconstructing all the verses of marcion’s gospel), my dissertation provided a textual commentary on every verse attested by tertullian precisely in order then to reconstruct every verse attested only by tertullian. we’re talking about who did this first and when, not about the material upon which he/they drew. i am so proud of my edinburgh colleagues and your significant contributions to scholarship today!

Recension de M. VINZENT, Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic

. dissertation as providing “a textcritical commentary on marcion’s gospel, on the basis of which one can establish, at least to some extent, the greek text, yet he does not give us the text itself. dieter has just published a full critical reconstruction of the text of marcion’s gospel, and is far better qualified than i to provide comment on the subject. song of songs and the ascent of the soul: ambrose, augustine, and the language of mysticism. surely we must first argue for a reconstruction before drawing conclusions about the “innersynoptic relation. i am so proud of my edinburgh colleagues and your significant contributions to scholarship today! yet, not only is his reconstruction different in both readings and order from what i argue we can actually reconstruct from the sources, there is no indication of the basis for his own reconstruction.: vinzent refers to the combination of jesus’ sayings & narratives of actions into a continuous bios-type genre. in fact, the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel-text as evidenced in tertullian is one of the main contributions of the dissertation. think this article is pushing peas around a plate and not getting to the meat and potatoes of vinzent’s thesis. i guess that there might be good reasons to challenge vinzent’s proposal of marcion’s gospel as being the main single source for all gospels (unless i didn’t correctly get vinzent’s proposal on the matter). 273 does he let the reader know why: “the verse counting is taken from marcion’s gospel: a synoptic commentary. though there have been occasional exceptions in the history of research, generally verses in marcion’s gospel have been referred to with the number of the corresponding text in luke, much as is done in modern q studies. the cases of marcion and tatian,” in the new testament text in early christianity/le texte du nouveau testament au debut du christianisme, eds. roth for taking the time to explain your own research and the arguments that vinzent has put forth. instead, in this post i would like to focus my comments on larger issues related to the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel (the second of vinzent’s foundations). everyone who has examined the evidence (without a prior agenda) has judged that traditions about jesus (sayings, stories about him) circulated for decades before authors of the gospels chose to combine them into a connected narrative with a “bios” like shape.

The Bible and Interpretation - Marcion and the Idea of Heresy

discussion of some aspects of vinzent’s attempts to establish his case via his reading of the sources could perhaps be done in a follow-up posting, but i leave that decision up to larry and the interests of the readers of his blog. it is my hope, however, that constructive dialogue among those engaged in the present debates concerning marcion’s gospel, along the lines that markus and i have already enjoyed numerous times over the past years, will continue and that as a result, greater insight will be gained into this fascinating and important gospel text. nor, as highlighted above, do i find his attempts to invoke marcion’s gospel to be established on a critical or cogent reconstruction of marcion’s gospel. apart from all the other problems i have with vinzent’s volume, a fundamental one is that if we are going to debate the place of marcion’s gospel in early christianity, we must first debate the reconstruction of marcion’s gospel. further problem highlights a methodological issue in reconstructing marcion’s gospel., if marcion’s was the earliest gospel, and the others were reliant on it, this would have implications for the argument that the stories of the gospels reflect the life of an actual person called jesus in first century palestine. 264-72 he offers marcion’s gospel, luke, mark, and matthew in parallel columns in order to argue that marcion is the “key factor for the innersynoptic relation” (p. for helping martin — and the rest of us — gain a little perspective on what the scholarly consensus on this issue is and is not. week larry was kind enough to write a blog post mentioning my new monograph the text of marcion’s gospel published by brill in january of this year,[1] and he has now extended an invitation for me to write a guest entry interacting with markus vinzent’s new book entitled marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels.’s views are unique in the renewed debates concerning marcion’s gospel in that he believes that marcion wrote the first gospel ever written and that all four of our canonical gospels used marcion’s gospel as a source. this parable is clearly attested for marcion’s gospel, but, in my view, the precise wording cannot be reconstructed. in his own words, “marcion, who created the new literary genre of the ‘gospel’ and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of christ’s sayings and narratives” (p. yet, not only is his reconstruction different in both readings and order from what i argue we can actually reconstruct from the sources, there is no indication of the basis for his own reconstruction. it’s a question about the development of the literary genre of the gospels. the cases of marcion and tatian,” in the new testament text in early christianity/le texte du nouveau testament au debut du christianisme, eds.” vinzent, however, does not do this and not until n.

Markus Vinzent, Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels

MwEL: A New Synoptic Hypothesis - Tricky NT Textual Issues

the problem is, however, that 5:39 is unattested for marcion’s gospel. sum, for reasons outlined briefly in my forthcoming jts review, i do not think that the relevant sources, in particular tertullian, support vinzent’s thesis. so, alongside david roth’s review, i’d expect to see a critical review of vinzent’s book by any scholar dealing with the synoptic problem.’s views are unique in the renewed debates concerning marcion’s gospel in that he believes that marcion wrote the first gospel ever written and that all four of our canonical gospels used marcion’s gospel as a source. vinzent essentially attempts to construct his case on two foundations: first, and foremost, on the basis of his reading of several important sources for and works on marcion’s gospel and second, on the basis of what vinzent presumes to be the content and readings of marcion’s gospel. if vinzent is correct, then he would put to bed tuckett, kloppenborg, goodacre and all. which is: before we can judge the relationship of marcion’s gospel to luke, we first must have a critical text established for marcion’s gospel! we, pastors, usually have to read about theories like vinzent’s in the media, usually hyped as if true, without qualification.” the problem is that this is a planned work of vinzent’s that has not been published! of course, the devil is in the details and discussing all the particulars here would impose far too much on those patient enough to have read this already far too long blog post. 'many of the dates confidently assigned by modern experts to the new testament documents', especially the gospels, rest 'on presuppositions rather than facts' (j. in a forthcoming review of vinzent’s monograph in the journal of theological studies i noted that it is important to take vinzent’s voice into account within the contemporary discussions of marcion’s gospel, and that he has provided the reader with a helpful collection of many of the relevant ancient and modern sources for scholarship on marcion’s gospel and the synoptic gospels. great mystery of marriage sex and conception in ancient valentinian traditions. make sure you include the unit and box numbers (if assigned). it simply provides a way for scholarship to reference “the verse in marcion’s gospel that corresponds to the verse in luke. item: marcion and the dating of the synoptic gospels (studia patristica supplements).

Markus Vinzent | King's College London -

(lwh:  given the stir created by markus vinzent’s recent book on marcion, i invited dieter roth to give a guest blog-posting on the book., a large parcels with the author's copies have arrived at my desk - and i am glad to announce that the books is now available in bookshops and online shops. such statements are a bit surprising and unexpected for a monograph focusing on marcion’s gospel and, unfortunately, reflect subsequent problematic interactions with ancient sources and scholars by vinzent., i think you don’t grasp quite what (dieter, not david) roth is saying: vinzent’s case for the priority of marcion’s gospel is built upon a purported reconstructed text of marcion’s gospel, and roth claims that vinzent doesn’t give adequate basis for the text that he treats as marcion’s. that is a much bigger stretch, and so far as i can see the dresden conference didn’t deal with that. in a forthcoming review of vinzent’s monograph in the journal of theological studies i noted that it is important to take vinzent’s voice into account within the contemporary discussions of marcion’s gospel, and that he has provided the reader with a helpful collection of many of the relevant ancient and modern sources for scholarship on marcion’s gospel and the synoptic gospels.., theodor zahn and adolf von harnack, unaccountably he writes “marcion’s gospel has not been critically edited from its greek and latin sources to provide us with its contours and, as far as possible, with its greek wording, except for a very early attempt by the famous august hahn (1792-1863)” (p. it simply provides a way for scholarship to reference “the verse in marcion’s gospel that corresponds to the verse in luke.. brill mybook is a print-on-demand paperback copy which is sold at a. nor, as highlighted above, do i find his attempts to invoke marcion’s gospel to be established on a critical or cogent reconstruction of marcion’s gospel. this parable is clearly attested for marcion’s gospel, but, in my view, the precise wording cannot be reconstructed. though there have been occasional exceptions in the history of research, generally verses in marcion’s gospel have been referred to with the number of the corresponding text in luke, much as is done in modern q studies.. dissertation as providing “a textcritical commentary on marcion’s gospel, on the basis of which one can establish, at least to some extent, the greek text, yet he does not give us the text itself. and the dating of the synoptic gospels (studia patristica supplements 2) has been published.'non-separation': closeness and co-operation between jews and christians in the fourth century. and christianity: a mere antagonism or a profound common ground?

Markus Vinzent, Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels

to larry and to dieter for this thoughtful, gracious and articulate review. within the confines of my brief, forthcoming jts review i offer two specific examples concerning problems with vinzent’s use and reading of the sources (the first foundation noted above), so i will not repeat those here. vinzent proposes marcion was significant in the literary history of early christianity.“in his own words, “marcion, who created the new literary genre of the ‘gospel’ and also gave the work this title, had no historical precedent in the combination of christ’s sayings and narratives”. art and archaeology cannot provide the material basis 'to secure the irrefutable inner continuity' of the christian beginnings (erich dinkler); can the synoptic gospels step in? giveaway allows you to run promotional giveaways in order to create buzz, reward your audience, and attract new followers and customers. we’re talking about who did this first and when, not about the material upon which he/they drew. 273 does he let the reader know why: “the verse counting is taken from marcion’s gospel: a synoptic commentary. doing this does not mean that the relationship between marcion’s gospel and luke has been decided, or that the reading in luke is that of marcion. their narratives, however, are as absent from the first hundred and fifty years of early christianity as are their visual imageries., as far as i could tell, vinzent nowhere indicates the source for his, sometimes extensive, citation of marcion’s gospel. though perhaps the present decade has not yet reached the amount of scholarly output found in the debates on marcion’s gospel in german scholarship of the 1840s and 1850s, we are well on our way! think this article is pushing peas around a plate and not getting to the meat and potatoes of vinzent’s thesis., as far as i could tell, vinzent nowhere indicates the source for his, sometimes extensive, citation of marcion’s gospel. in my view, then, any attempt to establish the relationship between marcion’s gospel and luke by invoking such an argument from silence is so tenuous that it cannot be taken as having any force. if vinzent is correct, then he would put to bed tuckett, kloppenborg, goodacre and all.

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